complaining after being left out in her crib

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Hello there!

My 7 month-old baby has been cured for a month as of today, still one thing remains to be solved: sometimes she cries for 5 to 10 minutes after being left on her crib. I'm aware that laughing is very important for putting a happy baby down for the night but she is a (very) hard nut to ----! And we don't always succeed in getting a real hearty laugh from her. She is not even ticklish. And I know that she should be crying for long after being left alone... she should be able to enjoy every bit of it by now, right?
I wonder if she is tired enough toward the end of the day because the toughest sleep times (longer periods of crying before falling asleep) are the afternoon nap and nighttime, 4:45PM and 8:00PM respectively. She is not crawling yet, so I don't know exactly how to get her more physically tired.
I'd enormously appreciate any feedback/advisement on this

Here is our full schedule with most typical meals:

7AM- Good morning + Nursing
7:30- Breakfast (fruit and yogurt)
9:30 - 10:15 Nap (I nurse her about 20 minutes before nap time)
10:30- Second breakfast (egg+ avocado)
12:30 - 2:00 Nap
2:15 - Lunch (meat+ vegetables + nursing)
4:45- 5:30 Nap (I nurse about 20 minutes before nap time)
6:15 Dinner (meat+ vegetables+ dessert+nursing)
7:15 Bath
7:40 Top up (nursing)
8:00 Good Night!


OH! one other question:
I will need to put my baby down for naps in her sister's room (the reason: there is banging on the wall next door to her own room from construction). It should be ok right? By now she should have the flexibility of sleeping in a different room so long we stick to her schedule (which we absolutely do).

Thanks again,

Adriana

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

I meant to say:
she SHOULDN'T be crying after being left in her crib.
Adriana

[Sarisparis]

Hi Adriana and welcome to Anna's forum

It seems you've come far already, I take it the nights are now calm and that your daughter gets the sleep she needs. Well done! :thumbsup:

As you say, the child should not be crying when put to sleep, that's the whole idea about the cure. Nevertheless, it's important to be aware that the term "crying" often covers every single noise made by the child, whereas some kids need to "wind down", and for some this winding down is not silent. So, as always during the cure, LISTEN to what your child is saying. Remember, for the moment she does not have the words, she only has her voice.

I wonder if she is tired enough toward the end of the day because the toughest sleep times (longer periods of crying before falling asleep) are the afternoon nap and nighttime, 4:45PM and 8:00PM respectively.

I would guess quite the opposite! My guess is that the late afternnoon nap comes too late in the evening (too close to bedtime). It's quite common that this third nap is getting difficult around 7 months and many decide to cut it about this age. During a period, it can be a good idea to let the child rest, and if she goes to sleep let her sleep for five minutes (sharp). This can be done by taking a walk with the buggy for instance. You can also put her to bed for the night a bit earlier if she's really tired, no problem.

Your schedule is quite different from the ones I've had for my kids and I wonder if things might not be improved if you change it a bit. The classical schedule would have lunch just before the long nap. Maybe you could give a more steady breakfast at 7:30 and give lunch around noon. If she gets very hungry in the meanwhile, maybe a fruit just to get her going until lunch.
Lunch and dinner are also very close in your current schedule (Anna recommends 3-4 hours between the meals). I have had schedules of this kind for my kids:

Good morning
7:30 Breakfast
Nap
11:30 Lunch
Long nap
15:00 Snack
Calm moment (possibility to sleep 5 min)
18:30 Dinner
Good night

Would something like this fit?

And we don't always succeed in getting a real hearty laugh from her. She is not even ticklish.

A non ticklish baby? What if you play in front of a mirror, or hide and seek under a blanket? Or have her flying like a huge jet on your arms and then dive into the bed when it's time to sleep?

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Hello again!

Thanks so much for your response! Great, I was thinking that we could start phasing the late afternoon nap out and putting her to bed a little earlier, so hearing you saying that it may actually improve her going down for night helps a lot
Do you think it would be a good idea to make her middle of the day nap 30 minutes longer (that would be 2 hours total) if we begin to take the late afternoon nap out?

I guess I could also try the schedule you propose and give her a hearty lunch before the long nap.

Thanks for the tips for making her laugh, we certainly will give them a try!

Thanks again to you and, of course, to Anna. The GNS cure is a MAJOR contribution to parenthood these days!!!!

Adriana

[Sarisparis]

Do you think it would be a good idea to make her middle of the day nap 30 minutes longer (that would be 2 hours total) if we begin to take the late afternoon nap out?

Yes, it seems a good idea to me. Generally, it's quite practical to get the long nap in place quite early as this is the one that will stay for several years. The morning nap often disappear around a year or a bit after, the late afternoon nap around the current age of your child. Whereas the long afternoon nap will remain for a long time, often up to the age of three or more.

Thanks again to you and, of course, to Anna. The GNS cure is a MAJOR contribution to parenthood these days!!!!

I know exactly what you mean, as all other persons on this forum, I've been helped by Anna too. And if you like GNS, I would strongly recommend that you read For The Love Of Children, the first book Anna wrote about children (after her 30 novels or so). You'll find chapters for each age, up to 16 years, and much to read about education, siblings (no jealousy), how to make family life work out, and lots of more.

How to get the book: http://www.annawahlgren.com/index.php/s ... oken-25-ar

Thanks for the tips for making her laugh, we certainly will give them a try!

Have fun!

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Hi Sarisparis!

Thanks for your latest response
So, these days I've changed her schedule to resemble more what you suggested, which I think makes a lot of sense. I think we are on our way to cut the evening nap.
We have been working a lot on making her laugh and I think it's going very well, she's having much more fun before going down for naps as well as for the night, however, sometimes she still begins to cry the minute she is put on the mattress I listen and it is true that she doesn't sound necessarily sad or anxious but rather angry. Angry that the fun has stopped, I figure. So, I guess, I just want to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel with this situation.... because I really want her to teach her that going to sleep is great. I hope that we soon make progress in this regard.

One last thing, a practical question: We began the cure more than a month ago now, should I be limiting drastically the number of jingles I can give her when putting her down. Should I try to give a "reminder" jingle only if it is completelly necessary... Perhaps I don't remember correctly but the book emphasizes the merging of reminder and confirmation jingles implying (i suppose) that at some point the baby doesn't need any more than two jingles: the one with which she is put down and the confirmation, right? Sometimes I jingle more than that although I make sure that at least 4 minutes have passed from a previous one. And this is not necessary most nights but there have been times.... Is this a mistake I've made?


Thank you very much for your support! I really means a lot!

Adriana
(in Brooklyn, New York).

[Sarisparis]

Hi Adriana

Great to hear that she's having more fun, good job :thumbsup:

I listen and it is true that she doesn't sound necessarily sad or anxious but rather angry. Angry that the fun has stopped, I figure. So, I guess, I just want to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel with this situation.... because I really want her to teach her that going to sleep is great. I hope that we soon make progress in this regard.

One last thing, a practical question: We began the cure more than a month ago now, should I be limiting drastically the number of jingles I can give her when putting her down. Should I try to give a "reminder" jingle only if it is completelly necessary... Perhaps I don't remember correctly but the book emphasizes the merging of reminder and confirmation jingles implying (i suppose) that at some point the baby doesn't need any more than two jingles: the one with which she is put down and the confirmation, right? Sometimes I jingle more than that although I make sure that at least 4 minutes have passed from a previous one. And this is not necessary most nights but there have been times.... Is this a mistake I've made?

I bunch these questions together as my answer will cover both.

Let's start with the jingle. Yes, you can merge the confirmation jingle with the information jingle, she knows what it's all about. If you keep on jingling informatively first, and then confirmatively, there will be a whole lot of jingles and she might be even more upset - by now she knows perfectly welll what you mean, but she might not share your opinion that it's now time to go to sleep.
A way to help her when you put her to bed and she's upset, without abusing the jingle (which can lose some if its "power" if used to much and not at the right moment) is to make use of what Anna call household noise. The idea is to show her that life is going on perfectly well and that she can relax and enjoy the fact that she's in the perfect place to sleep. She might not know she's tired yet, but as her schedule has been worked out to fit her needs, it won't take long for her to come to this conclusion too.
Household noise can be the vacuum cleaner, you discussing with somebody on the phone not too far from her room, cleaning the kitchen, bathroom whatever. Hence, she will have something else to listen to than her own screaming.
Another option is music, classical music without lyrics. Mozart is great.

Good luck greetings from Paris

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Hello Sarisparis!

Thanks again for your response.
You're right about household noise, it does help, she calms herself faster when something is going on around her... We live in a small apartment so, there isn't much space between her room and the rest of the house, in fact she sleeps next to the kitchen so we have to be careful but in general some noise helps.
I'll keep the use of the jingle for when it's really necessary to convey the message from now on, I don't want to lose its "power".

Regards

Adriana

[Sarisparis]

It can in fact be considered as an advantage to live in a small appartement. You will have no problem to assure her that "all is well", that life goes on just as it should be and that you're on guard.

Do not hesitate to do the dishes or something else just after you've put her to bed. She will hear that you're up and around.

And never ever forget about the laughing part before bedtime.

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Hi Sarisparis,

Yes, I guess living in a small apartment could be an advantage... I didn't take it that way with my first daughter (now 3 and a half years old) and I suffered thinking that any noise could wake her up... it actually did.... of course back then we didn't know about the cure... but that's another story.

I have one more question for you:

Clara, my cured baby, it's been sick (with a cold) for the last three days. And for the last three days she's been waking up around 4:30 am coughing. I suppose that she wakes up because she doesn't feel great... I jingle but it doesn't have much effect... she goes back to sleep for 15 minutes and wakes up again... do you think it is a good idea to do a little bit of fanning since right now she actually needs some extra help/comfort because of the cold? I know this is not recommended when the baby wakes up because of the "hour of the wolf" so... not sure what to do. I also wonder... when a baby has a fever and you need to give them something to drink, what's recommended? To bring a bottle to the crib.. I guess so, I think Anna mentions this in the book, right? Anyway, I don't think that will be necessary here (hopefully) but it would be good to know just in case.

Thanks a lot!!!!

Adriana

[Sarisparis]

Hi Adriana,

Yes, I guess living in a small apartment could be an advantage... I didn't take it that way with my first daughter (now 3 and a half years old) and I suffered thinking that any noise could wake her up... it actually did.... of course back then we didn't know about the cure... but that's another story.

I know exactly what you mean. When my first child was born, we used to live in a tiny parisian appartement and we spent a lot of time hushing because "baby asleep". Of course he woke up whenever the telephone rang, or for any other minor noise. I discovered GNS when he was about five months old and got a lot to think about. When I was pregnant with my second child, I read For the Love of Children, Annas supersize book about children, from 0-16 years old. I learned about "the standardmodel" (how to get on the right track from the very first beginning, nice and slowly), how to help the siblings get along and love eachother (without jealousy), ideas on how to organize life at home. I also learned about household noise. I took the habit to have music on for the naps, often Enya or something like that - smooth and lively in the same time. Often I put on the laundry machine just in time for the nap, or I put the vacuum cleaner to use. The idea was to create a background sound so that a ringing telephone (or something else) would not wake the baby up. Sudden sounds rarely do any good.
When my third child was born, all this thinking was put into practice since long and even with the big brothers playing loudly during his naps, he enjoyed his naps. I remember once when he had some troubles getting to sleep. It was during his first months so he still slept in our bedroom. I took the big brothers (3 and 1.5 years old) and played a tickling game on our big bed, less than a meter from the crib. Little brother fell asleep in less than two minutes.

Clara, my cured baby, it's been sick (with a cold) for the last three days. And for the last three days she's been waking up around 4:30 am coughing. I suppose that she wakes up because she doesn't feel great... I jingle but it doesn't have much effect... she goes back to sleep for 15 minutes and wakes up again... do you think it is a good idea to do a little bit of fanning since right now she actually needs some extra help/comfort because of the cold? I know this is not recommended when the baby wakes up because of the "hour of the wolf" so... not sure what to do. I also wonder... when a baby has a fever and you need to give them something to drink, what's recommended? To bring a bottle to the crib.. I guess so, I think Anna mentions this in the book, right? Anyway, I don't think that will be necessary here (hopefully) but it would be good to know just in case.

Yes, I think you're quite right. If you think she's thirsty, or needs some medication, do not hesitate to go in, at once, and give her what she needs in self assured way. Leave with the jingle.
The fan can be useful if needed, you're the one who'll be able to tell when. Remember that the jingle is magic when you're absolutely sure what you're saying. If you hesitate that she's actually thirsty or whatever when jingling, your message is not "all is well, go back to sleep".

Keep calm, rely on the fact that the cold won't last forever and that you by now know that she's enjoying sleeping all night when the coughing does not bother her.

My copy of the GNS book is on the run, so I can't check what Anna says about sick kids, but I believe there's something about it in the Q&As section in the end. Also take a look at the Security chapter and re-read the Safari once in a while. Those chapters are VERY good for the attitude. 8)

Hope Clara will be getting better very soon. Do not hesitate to use the 15minutes margin in her schedule in order to make the naps a bit longer, sleep is the best medication.

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Thanks again Sarisparis!

I went back to the GNS book and checked... it's right there in the Q&A part what to do with sick children so no more questions there. And yes, I have been using the 15 min margin these days... though Clara is much better she is not fully recovered (it's still coldish in NY)
And talking about nap times... When you want to adjust a nap (make it longer or shorter,) is it recommended that you go 15 minutes by 15 minutes? For example, I think that Clara could take a 2 hr nap at midday. Her current nap is 1.5 hrs. Should I make a first 15 min increment and after a while make the other? Or you think that I could just try to let her sleep 2 hrs. The reason why I think this will be necessary is because I know that the morning nap will eventually get shorter (she takes a 45 min nap now) and then go.

I feel so fortunate to have you and the forum as interlocutors. Thanks a lot, really.

Cheers,
Adriana

[Sarisparis]

Good to hear that she's feeling better.

Should I make a first 15 min increment and after a while make the other?

I would simply let her sleep and wake her up after 2h.

I might not be the best person to guide you about the cure as I'm quite relaxed regarding schedule and exakt timing for naps etc. My favourite part of the schedule is the 15 minutes margin, which in practice means that you have 30 minutes during which you're not early, nor late. Just good. 8)

For my kids, I have considered that the long nap is after lunch and that the other naps should not be longer than what it takes to get the kid going until the "real sleep" (long afternoon nap and night). As you say, the morning nap will soon get shorter and the second afternoon nap is maybe already gone.

I feel so fortunate to have you and the forum as interlocutors. Thanks a lot, really.

Thank you As I said earlier, we have all been been helped by Anna in some way, so it's very good to know that this help is now passed forward. :thumbsup:

[aperez@gc.cuny.edu]

Hello again Sarisparis!

Thanks for your last message, I had not logged on for almost two weeks... As you thought, the late afternoon nap is now gone. So we have only a 45 min nap in the morning and the 2hrs midday nap. I think it really meets Clara's needs in terms of sleeping, enjoyment of the day, etc. However, we are facing a new challenge: waking up early in the morning, by early i mean between 4:30 and 6AM It's been like this for the last 4 days but today we couldn't make her go back to sleep at all!
We had gotten rid of the hour of the wolf like a month ago. And in those occasions she woke up before 7AM a jingle would be enough to make her go back to sleep... but not anymore, apparently. Maybe this is not really a manifestation of the hour of the wolf? What could it be? She is having a nice, abundant meal (dinner consists of meat or fish and veggies and some fruit as dessert) about an hour and a half before going to bed... but her top up is only about 20 minutes or so before bedtime. Could she be hungry?
I was reading what other people have done when facing early mornings... When/if she wakes up and jingle is not enough... should I try fanning till she falls a sleep for a couple of days? The room is very dark I don't think that's a problem....

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated,

Greetings,
Adriana

[TorsMamma]

Hi and welcome back.

So 1 you really gotta make sure the room is truely pitch dark. This is about 90% of all issues when waking up early in the morning. Please enter the room during the mid day en ensure you can't see the hand in front of you.

Issues will come and issues will go, there is no use in trying to understand "why" they do things, she has some questions regarding things beings and you need to give her the answers that all is well.
Regarding food it is not what you eat just before bedtime but how much you eat over the whole day. So give her 4 real meals and 1 snack just before bed to top off if anything is missing. Try to just stand firm and think about the safari from the book. Re read it please! Your job is to stand outside and keep guard. Play Mozart can also help for early waking's.

Fanning is a very radical thing you do as a last resort. If you do decide to use it, you stand until she is asleep the first morning and then count to 200 after standing more. This can easely take 45-60 min and you cannot give up. She needs to go back to sleep even if it is just for 5 min.

Please let us know how it goes for you! Stick with the schedule.