Change in day naps

[Shoola]

Hi!

Thank you so much for the cure, it saved us
I started when my boy was 3.5 months, so I first started with the schedule & than implanted all the rest of the tools.
Now my boy is 5.5 months, this is his schedule:
6:45 wake up & milk (breast)
8:15-9 sleep in a carriage outside
9:30 fruits & milk
11-11:45 sleep (sometime bed & sometimes outside)
12 vegetables & milk (next week I will start with meat)
13:45- 15:45 sleep - 2 hours
16 milk
17:45 - 18:30 sleep in carriage
18:30 porridge & milk
19:30 top up
19:45 good night

Most of the time the nights are good, he sleeps 10.5 to 11 hours
The 8:15 nap & the long nap are going well most of the time (it took a month to get there...)
The 11 nap is so so, he usually protest but than sleep.
The big problem is with the 17:45 nap, he needs it because without it he is so tierd it's a problem with the evening food & bath. When we try to put him in bed he scream hysterically for 30 min... so I have to take him out in the carriage & there also lately he is crying & I have to rock him to stop crying, today he stopped crying but still mumbled & whine

What should I do?

Thank you so much for being here

[Sarisparis]

Hi Shoola

Welcome to Anna's forum and congratulations to your good cure results! =D>

First some general advice regarding the food. Kids of that age can be (are often) Very Hungry. So, be sure to let him say stop instead of considering that one regular portion is what he needs. Sleep is often very related to how much he eats, so do not be afraid of overfeed him. He will say stop if you do, don't worry.

Now to the schedule. Your schedule is quite unusual, with four naps. Three is what most babies have at that age, and as you notice, the last one often causes some problems.

Is he very tired at 8.15 when the first nap is scheduled? 1,5h awake is not that much for a big boy as your son, even if most babies are more tired in the morning than in the afternoon. A quite classical schedule is something like 12 + 45 + 2 + 45, what would you think of that?

It could look like this :

7 wake up & milk (breast)
Second breakfast with the rest of the family (taste of your breakfast, eventually this breakfast will replace the first one)
9.15 Nap 45 minutes (until 10)
11.30 Lunch - as much as he can eat (vegetables, meat, ..., milk)
Just after lunch Long nap 2 hours (or more)
15 fruits & milk
17 Nap (20 or 45 minutes)
18 Porridge & milk (or same kind of food as for lunch & milk)
19 top up
Good night

This is a kind of schedule that is quite easy to adapt as he grows. In a month or two the last nap will disappear, around 1 year the morning nap will be reduced to 20 and then disappear (or disappear directly). The long afternoon nap can last for years. 8)

When my kids had trouble to get the sleep they needed as the last nap became more and more difficult, I had a "between-period" where I tried to make the long nap be as long as possible (BIG lunch ). Hence, the afternoon did not be so long. Once we skipped the last nap, I tried to push the long nap a bit later on into the afternoon for the same reasons.
If the last nap completely crashes, be not afraid of putting him to bed earlier. Paradoxically, putting kids to bed earlier in the evening might also be a good joker to prevent early mornings. (Just as complete darkness in the bedroom, but I guess you're aware of that after having read the GNS-book).

What do you think?

[Shoola]

Hi Sarisparis

Thank you for the quick answer!
I will increase the amount of food, will start giving him meet etc. Thank you

As for the schedule
Since he was 2 months I was trying the more orthodox schedules & they didn't work. It wasn't right for Gur (my child's name) & it was a constant "problem" - he never slept all of the day naps, he cried half of them & I was finishing my days feeling like crap
After a long while & saw some tendencies:
He is sleepy in the early morning (that's why the 8:15 nap)
His best hours are 9 until 13 or 14.
He sleeps 1.5/2 hours happily when it started 13:30 to 14 (I tried putting him at around 12 for a long nap & it never worked)
& so on

When I read the GNS I was inspired from the 5 month old schedule sample Anna wrote
It is 11+45+45+2+45
I decided the hours & the day I started he loved it - from day one less crying & better nights.

I know my schedule is a bit different but it work, only the last one is a problem
Do you think if I will try to move the long nap to 16:15 & will start the evening routine a bit earlier it will work?
So he will go to sleep at 19:15 (he will be 3 hours awake), what do you think?
Today he wouldn't go to sleep so I did it, it went fine but he was sooo tierd...

Also another question:
He is almost crawling, everyday he does something new, very exciting!
These last few days when I put him in bed in the sleeping position, he immediately jumps on 6 & start crawling around crying...even though he is tierd & was happy a minute before
He is so worked up that there is no chance for putting him again in the position
So I just go out with a jingle, usually he quiten in a minute to 8.. I feel bad that he went to sleep crying & I have nothing to do. Do you have an idea?

Thank you so much for your time & patience!
Leora

[Sarisparis]

I will increase the amount of food, will start giving him meet etc.

:thumbsup:

When I read the GNS I was inspired from the 5 month old schedule sample Anna wrote
It is 11+45+45+2+45
I decided the hours & the day I started he loved it - from day one less crying & better nights.

Ok, I get the picture. Thanks Did you go back to the GNS-book and read how this schedule was adapted as little Emma grew older?
1/ The last nap was shorted to 20 minutes (6 months)
2/ The last nap disappeared and night started at 19 (7 months)
Take a look at p 145 :thumbsup:

He is almost crawling, everyday he does something new, very exciting!
These last few days when I put him in bed in the sleeping position, he immediately jumps on 6 & start crawling around crying...even though he is tierd & was happy a minute before
He is so worked up that there is no chance for putting him again in the position
So I just go out with a jingle, usually he quiten in a minute to 8.. I feel bad that he went to sleep crying & I have nothing to do. Do you have an idea?

Been there too With my first boy I wanted him to lie down when I left the room and I could put him back down a hundred times. With the the following kids, I was much cooler and tried to apply Anna's philosophy that the only thing you can do as a parent is to make sure that the child has everything he or she needs to be able to sleep.
Besides the obvious things as the child being well fed and comfortably dressed, the child also needs a confident parent simply putting the child into bed, saying in words and in actions "now it's time to sleep". 8)
If, when the parent leaves the room, the child chooses to play around a bit first, no big deal, children also have the right to some privacy. And once they are able to crawl/stand up, they are most often able to lie down, on their own. If you have a doubt on this, take every occasion to practice when he is awake.
Just as us, babies need to find their position to sleep. Once my babies were capable of moving around in bed, I stopped using the "positioning" as in GNS. I simply but them to bed with a quick and gentle fanning and left the room with the jingle. No problem if they spent some time crawling around (can be quite funny to see in which position they are to be found when naptime is owed ).
If you think that he takes too much time to wind down and go to sleep, do not hesitate to put him to bed a bit earlier than scheduled (not more than 15 minutes though).
And never forget the bed-time laugh!
Do not underestimate the amazing "tool" that we in Swedish call something last "household noise". That can be the vacuum cleaner, the laundry machine, music, mama on the phone... Any familiar sound that guarantee that life is going on just as normal and that it's simply time for babyboy to take a nap (he KNOWS that it's naptime, but he might not completely happy about it at first. If he's left alone - by a confident reassuring parent - he has the chance to discover that in fact the bed is quite confortable and that he's quite tired. ).

[Shoola]

Thank you again!!

Oh, regarding the crawling franticly in bed: I have no problem if he takes his time to talk & choose his own place & position to sleep
My only problem is times like tonight: I put him to bed for the night (usually he is sleeping in few minutes), as always happy (I love that "tool").
The minute he touched the mattress he jumped on 4 & runed around happy, I left with a jingle - after 10 min of talking to himself he started to scream himself like crazy
Really crazy - for the next 30 min, nothing helped - no jingle (just made him scream even harder), no way for buff
What should we do?

[Sarisparis]

Oh, regarding the crawling franticly in bed: I have no problem if he takes his time to talk & choose his own place & position to sleep

:thumbsup:

My only problem is times like tonight: I put him to bed for the night (usually he is sleeping in few minutes), as always happy (I love that "tool").
The minute he touched the mattress he jumped on 4 & runed around happy, I left with a jingle - after 10 min of talking to himself he started to scream himself like crazy
Really crazy - for the next 30 min, nothing helped - no jingle (just made him scream even harder), no way for buff
What should we do?

When you say "crazy" and "nothing helped" I understand your son was really upset, but upset as in ANGRY not SAD. Am I right?
You can not do much to calm angry kids, on the contrary, you should respect their right to express themselves and not try to make them shut up no matter what. See how I mean? The key here is to LISTEN. Whenever you hear that he changes his tone and starts asking for help as in being sad, go with a really confident and reassuring happy jingle. When he's angry, some music or household noise might help him changing ideas. (I have had some great experience with Mozart, can be oh so more relaxing for the exhausted parent than the vacuum cleaner ).
But, him being "crazy" as you say can also be a result of him being 'overtired'. As if he did not get all the sleep he needed during the day or simply if he had a really intense day with a lot of new things. If you feel that your son is more tired than he usually is, do not hesitate to put him to bed half an hour earlier than the schedule. Paradoxally, this might have positive effects on the night and also on the morning, sound sleep gives more sound sleep. But if he goes to bed "crazy", the sleep might not be as quite and restful as if he went to bed normally.

What did you decide on for the day naps?

[Shoola]

Hi Sarisparis
Sorry for not answering sooner, I had some family issues #-o & was too exhausted to write...

Gur turned 6 months today
He is going through lots of changes: started crawling around the house, trying to sit, trying to climb on things, we started with a nanny twice a week & everyday we play in the park & meet other kids (just a bit) - he is super excited & sometimes overtired.

Last time we "spoke" I decided to take off the last nap but suddenly he needs it again & most days sleeps it without problems, so I decided to keep it
I realised that since there was a change in the clock (one hour ), the last nap is in the dark & it's a bit scary & the car's lights can be too much.
So I take him to a more quite areas of the city, put some blanket over the top to make it darker etc. - it helps

The last 10 days where a bit different, suddenly some days he started to questioned the big nap
I had a good breakthrough with the crazy questioning faze before the nap that I managed to calm him down, just when the frustration could turned to sad.
Those naps that he question hard before he wakes up after 45min or so..I try to let him try to go to sleep by himself or to jingle but he won't calm down so I have to take him out of bed much sooner - I think all the changes are overwhelming.
Thank god for the last sleep & the early evening option

Do you have an idea?
Thank you for all your help!
It's very kind of you

[TorsMamma]

Hi again,

What is your schedule like now? Night+naps+food and so on?

How is the laughter to bed? It needs to be at least 10-15 min, good laughing.

Also did you increase the food supply? Now you need to feed him faster than ever, they get bored quickly so you only have about 30 min on a meal to give him lots of food and finish with fruit.

Normally at the age of 6 months I recommend you to give a banana just before the long nap. Banana contains tryptophan which is the same as melatonin and they sleep better and longer from this and most of the time the 6 month old is too hungry for a long nap so at least one banana before the sleep will help!

Also he needs to crawl now, all day long and also get outside 2 times a day, one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon. AWAKE!

At 7 months the sleep will change an decrease with 30 mins to 14.5 hours/day. Please plan so you know what to do when that day comes as well.

Many thanks!

[Shoola]

Hi Torsmamma

I came in to write you a question & saw your massage from 17/11. I didn't get any notification to my email, so I read it only today.

Thank you for taking the time to help!
Well... Gur is 8 months tomorrow =D> very happy kid, I give lots of credits to this method & way of thinking.

I did some changes as Sarisparis & Anna's book recommended. They work really well but now it's time for more & I want to ask for your opinion before doing them

The schedual is:
7 wakes up & breastfeeding
9:10-9:30 20 min nap outside (he like to sleeps more, I always have to wake him up)
9:30 fruits
9:30-11:30 plays outside (his taking out lots of energy)
11:30-12 20-30 min nap outside(he like to sleeps more, I always have to wake him up)
12 vegetables & meat or fish
12:30 - 13:30 play time in or out - lots of fun
13:30 second lunch (before the big nap) - porridge or breast
13:45 bath
14:15 - 16:15 2 hours nap
16:15 breast + fruits/egg & avocado/soup
16:45-18 fun
18 porridge
18:30 - 19:15 bath, fun & topup breast

In the last 2 weeks he started to question the big day nap, lots of crying, waking up after 45 min etc. only once in few days he sleeps 1.5-1.45 hours.
I read in GNS that when they starting to question the big nap & nights it's time to shorten the short naps.
First thing I did is to shorten his other naps to 20 to 30 min top (he liked to sleep 30 & 45 min) but he is still having hard time to fall asleep in the big nap or he wakes up after 45min.

The nights - he slept beautifully until 5 nights ago, suddenly he started to wake up & cry.
Only one night I had to jingle all the rest he puts himself to sleep & this night he woke up once & went back with no crying.

* Do you think it's time to have only one nap of 45 instead of two of 20 min? he is tired & needs breaks because he is super active kid.
* Do you think the change in naps can be because of the 8 month anxiety?
* Do you think he needs more food?

Looking forward for your answer, thank you very much!!

[Shoola]

Hi again

Just wanted to updated that this night he woke up at 5:15... I jingled & it didn't help so at 5:45 I had to start the morning....
The mid day big nap was also a disaster...20 min crying & than only 30 sleeping - woke up screaming...He was sooo tired when I took him out of bed

I feel a change is needed in the naps & in the hours of meals.
I don't want to change without thinking it through, can you help me please?

Thank you!

[Shoola]

Hi again

Just wanted to updated that this night he woke up at 5:15... I jingled & it didn't help so at 5:45 I had to start the morning....
The mid day big nap was also a disaster...20 min crying & than only 30 sleeping - woke up screaming...He was sooo tired when I took him out of bed

I feel a change is needed in the naps & in the hours of meals.
I don't want to change without thinking it through, can you help me please?

Thank you!

[Sarisparis]

Hi Shoola

I'm sorry for the delay , hope Christmas kept you busy too.

How are things now? Are you still sticking to the schedule you mention on December 17? I find your schedule quite different from most of the schedule I've come across. A classical schedule would be something like 12h night + 45min morning nap + 2h midday nap + maybe 20 min afternoon nap. The current long nap is quite late in the day in my opinion. I would suggest something like this:

7 good morgning, breastfeeding
second breakfast (small sandwich, porridge, banana... whatever you eat)
9.15 morning nap 45 min
11:30 lunch (real food, possibly breastfeed as dessert)
12 long nap 2h
14:30 snack (porridge, fruit...)
if needed a short nap (20 min) before 17
18 dinner
bath
top up breast
good night

I do not think it's necessary to have two baths a day, but if it suits you why not.
Generally speaking, always let him eat as much as he wants and do not be afraid to insist a bit (but not too much). My kids always amazed me by eating a whole banana as dessert after a steady lunch (which is very good for the long nap 8) ).