Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

A parents' forum based on GNS (A Good Night's Sleep)
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Hello

No worries, I wasn't offended at all.

We've not used the buffing since night 3. We are trying to get away from the fanning when putting her to bed at night and I think we are getting there. We haven't had to go into M.'s room during the night at all since night 4. Jingling outside is enough to send her back to sleep. Not after 5.30 am though. She gets worked up. I put music on but she still screams and cries until I get her at 6.15 am. So far she's only slept until 6.30 am twice.

The naps are still difficult. Sometimes I fan for 20 minutes without any success. She just gets more and more frustrated. This is worrying me because she does not get enough sleep during the day and it shows.
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

And yes, I've read the security chapter several times :)
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

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Not sure what went wrong tonight - but it really went wrong. I fanned for ages but she got more and more worked up until she started to gag. So I buffed her for 15 minutes until she finally fell asleep. The whole thing took an hour! And that after feeling so confident before...
Sarisparis
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Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
Ort: Frankrike

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Androo skrev:And yes, I've read the security chapter several times :)
Great! Do not hesitate to read it again. :lol: It's absolutely fundamental for the cure.

How have the last days and nights been?
Androo skrev:Not sure what went wrong tonight - but it really went wrong.
Maybe it was a classical 'backlash'. Whatever it was, I hope you did not fall into the trap of revealing your own insecurity to your child (p 68)? Keep in mind that all she does is asking questions - and one of them might just as well be "are you really sure of what you're doing???"
She will insist until she gets an answer she can trust. Not only must you understand the fundamental importance of a sense of security, but you must find a way to convey this sense of total security in way that convinces your child.

It is absolutely necessary to reach your daughter - to communicate with her - with the jingle, otherwise you will be stuck fanning and buffing which is quite close to what Anna calls a permanent crisis mode (p 75). Do not forget that every physical intervention must end with the jingle. The jingle should be the last thing she hears from you, the last, but certainly not least, part of the message of "All is well" you pass on to her.

What are you doing when she's awake? Does she get the chance to work out on her tummy on the floor? To participate in what you're doing? (I never had such a well cleaned home as when my kids were babies - we spend A LOT of time on the floor cleaning spots together :lol: ).

:heart:
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Hello!

This is day 13 of the cure.
M. still takes about 25 minutes to fall asleep. We have to fan to calm her down but don't wait until she's sleepy. She will then sleep for about 10 or 10.5 hours. The last two nights she slept through.
She cries when she wakes up and neither music nor household noise can calm her down.
The naps are still very difficult. She never gets the three hours she needs. We have to fan/rock for at least 15 minutes or she won't even come close to falling asleep. Also, when she wakes up we are not able to send her back to sleep with the jingle.
We know we really need to work on the jingle but sometimes we just feel she really needs to sleep. So we get caught in the trap.
Sarisparis
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Androo skrev:She will then sleep for about 10 or 10.5 hours. The last two nights she slept through.
Great! :D

Regarding the difficult day naps, it is very easy to fall into a negative pattern. You 'know' it will be difficult and she feels that you're worried and hence she asks even more questions. Been there too. :roll:
The bed time laugh is an excellent way out of this, if you manage to step out of considering it a "tool". Simply have as much fun as you can - while you can! Once she's off to bed you won't be able to enjoy her company for an hour or so, so do it while you have the chance!

The cure is so much more than just a set of tools. The Attitude is overwhelming, of course. It is a very global process, where good nights give good days but also where good days give good nights. In a smaller perspective, if you have had a fantastic time together in the morning (working together, contemplating leaves falling down outside, laughing...) and she's been generously fed, why should she protest by being put to bed when it's nap time ? Put yourself in her place and tell her how lucky she is to have the chance to lie down, tired as she is. In peace. In security. What an enjoyment!

There's no magic involved in the GNS-cure, just a lot of common sense in a very structured way.

:heart:
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

I know Anna calls it asking questions but after 20 minutes crying for me it feels like controlled crying. Even though I'm just outside and I keep jingling. Not just for the naps but also if she wakes up too early and I can't get her for 45 minutes or so. I find this really hard to cope with.
Sarisparis
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Androo skrev:I know Anna calls it asking questions but after 20 minutes crying for me it feels like controlled crying. Even though I'm just outside and I keep jingling. Not just for the naps but also if she wakes up too early and I can't get her for 45 minutes or so
When you say "keep jingling", how do you mean? Your daughter should by know be quite familiar with the jingle and its message. Are you sure she's sad and unhappy? She might just as well be really angry, she wants to sleep and find it hard to wind down and you keep repeating things she already know. I do not mean to be critic, it can be hard to interpret what the child means with "crying and screaming". But I still mention this, as the jingle (or any other tool) will have no effect on an angry child. My experience is that in those situations, a quite short and affirmative jingle is enough, followed by household noise or Mozart quite load. Mozart is very popular, it gives the child something to listen to and makes it easier to wind down.
Androo skrev:I find this really hard to cope with.
Of course it's hard for all of you. Moreover, your daughter is about 8 months old, which is a quite challenging age regardless of sleeping problems etc. I suggest you take a look in the GNS-book p 114.
During this period, it is even more important to really assume the leadership. The world is trembling for your daughter and if you start tremble too, things will be even more difficult for her.

I insist on the importance of how you spend your time with her in general. It is very important that you involve her in what you're doing, that she doesn't feel excluded and sent off to some parallel play-universe. If she feels that she actually contributes, she will more easily accept to be on her own (to play, to sleep, etc).

And always, always, the bed time laugh. :D

Are all naps as difficult ?

:heart:
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Yes all naps are difficult. I'm sure she is angry as well but also unhappy. Her face is covered in tears and her eyes are puffy when I get her. That's why we feel so bad letting her cry.
I probably repeat the jingle 5 or 6 times in the space of 15 minutes. Otherwise I worry she feels left alone. I know this is not how you're supposed to do it.
I always have Mozart on very loud but I'm not sure if it really makes a difference.
We are pretty sure she's going through a difficult stage. She is clingy and easily upset. And this probably makes taking naps alone even more difficult for her.
We involve her a lot in what we do. She is very interested in it anyways so it's not difficult.
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Do you think our nap times are not right? I wonder if we should try the morning nap at 8 o'clock. She never sleeps past 6 am anyways. At the moment I have the feeling that because she misses out the morning nap she is very overtired by the midday nap. We never get more than 30 + 30 minutes out of her during the midday nap so again she's overtired for her afternoon nap.

The last two nights the going to bed was very easy. She hardly protested. Yesterday she had a chat to herself for 15 minutes before she fell asleep. For the first time ever.

I just don't understand why she is fine with sleeping at night but during the day it's such a struggle...
TorsMamma
Forumets ordförande
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Blev medlem: fre 17 nov 2006, 09:25
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av TorsMamma »

Hi,

You know what? You are in the middle of the 8-month anxiety and the more insecurity you show her or frustration and so on, the more she will keep asking. Normally the 8-månth anxiety will pass in about a month and I personally would not recommend changing schedules to much until it is over. You can always use the 15 min margin and put to bed 15 min earlier during naps, or later if there is something.

I would truly recommend you to read in “For the love of children” about this 8 month anxiety so that you know WHY, WHEN, WHERE and HOW. Since this is a big step for an 8 month old I wouldn’t change anything at this time.

So try to make the world a little smaller and get lots of air when she’s awake, but not with a lot of people or activities, Preferably in the forest twice a day. Try thinking predictable and reliable when she is like this. This is what you also want the jingle to present.

Where are her naps at this time? Pitch dark bedroom?
Tor 2006
:heart: BB barn från början. Sov sin första 12h natt 5 dagar före 4 mån, Diplomerad SS vid 6 mån
:heart:

:heart: FTLOC child from the beginning. Slept his first 12 hour night 5 days before 4 months. :heart:
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Hello

Thanks for the answer. Yes, I've got For the love of Children and I'm just reading about the 8 month anxiety. Now things make a lot more sense! I will try to go out for longer walks. The problem is that she might fall asleep in between naptimes if we're out in the pram or sling.
We've already cut back on other activities since starting the cure.
So far we've not made any changes to the schedule except for changing all her naps to the cotbed. We tried the pram for two weeks but it was worse than the cotbed.
I thought the daytime naps are not supposed to be in the darkness??? If she was in a pram outside like Anna suggest it wouldn't be dark either.
Thanks!!!
TorsMamma
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Blev medlem: fre 17 nov 2006, 09:25
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av TorsMamma »

Hi,

My son would only sleep in pitch dark room until he was like a sleepclock himself. So yes, pitch dark is my recommendation.

Try it for 10 days. Since you already changed to the cot, stick with it now. Calm and assertive! 8)

Don't forget the laughter every time!
Tor 2006
:heart: BB barn från början. Sov sin första 12h natt 5 dagar före 4 mån, Diplomerad SS vid 6 mån
:heart:

:heart: FTLOC child from the beginning. Slept his first 12 hour night 5 days before 4 months. :heart:
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Ok, we'll try the dark room. Makes sense since she seems to have difficulty switching her very busy brain off :-)
What should we do about the waking up early in the morning? We would like her to sleep from 7 pm until 6.30 am but she always wakes up between 5.30 and 6 am. She eats big dinners and has a night cap so I can't imagine her being woken up by hunger. She starts crying if we don't get her even if I put music on or make household noises. Not a nice way to start the day.
Thanks!
TorsMamma
Forumets ordförande
Inlägg: 11193
Blev medlem: fre 17 nov 2006, 09:25
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av TorsMamma »

Hi,

OK so you make a plan!

Först 2 mornings you go in and you sun feather until she is asleep and when she’s asleep you count to 100 and then you leave the room with the confirmation jingle always X4, soft and confirming, don’t whisper. You need to make her go back to sleep, you don’t let HER decide it is morning. Then you do the alarm clock. You set the clock every single day on 6.30 outside the room. When it rings LOUD AND CLEAR you bring it in to the bedroom make her turn it off, or do it in front of her so she understands that SHE doesn’t decide when it is morning, Clock does. Soon she will understand that even if you wake up before the clock, you stay in bed and talk for a moment or two.

Ensure it is truly pitch dark even during the day!

Then you move on to household noise and Loud Mozart. (no text in the music)

So now you have a 3 day strategy, you stick to it, no matter what. The first morning you might have to do the sun feather for more than 45 minutes, nothing is wrong with that. Just YOGA breath and stand there. I hope you put her to bed on her belly by now and that you can do the sun feather to calm her down. First morning she will ask lots of questions or even get angry, just stand there and be calm and assertive.

Also ensure she has lots of food during the whole day! It is not what you eat before bedtime that counts, bur during the whole day. Porridge for breakfast, real lunch with vegetables and meat, with fruits after and snack and real dinner with vegetables and meat then porridge for last snack before bed. 4 real meals and late night snack.
Tor 2006
:heart: BB barn från början. Sov sin första 12h natt 5 dagar före 4 mån, Diplomerad SS vid 6 mån
:heart:

:heart: FTLOC child from the beginning. Slept his first 12 hour night 5 days before 4 months. :heart:
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